The Aftermath: Stories from Former Watermark Church Members

I received some emails from former Watermark Church members who wanted to tell their stories, but were hesitant to share too much online, for fear of repercussions, or as I refer to it, ‘fair game’. I covered this in my previous post, ‘When Is a Church Member ‘Fair Game‘, referencing a case of church discipline that Watermark carried out publicly against one of its members.

I assured those who wanted to speak out with their stories that I would not identify them or use any details in my post that could be used to identify them. It’s extremely worrisome that they feel they have to hide and be afraid of what Watermark Church may say or do in response to them telling the truth about their abuse. We are talking about a CHURCH here, not the mafia. It shocks me how much fear this church has put inside of the people who dared leave it.

Before I get into the first story, I want to lay some groundwork to help my readers understand how the structure of ‘community groups’ at Watermark Church works. My daughter occasionally attends their weekly singles service, ‘The Porch’, which she enjoys. She has never seriously considered getting involved with the church beyond that, but has expressed to me that it is quite difficult to actually get connected at Watermark Church because everything is centered around MEMBERSHIP and COMMUNITY GROUPS and you can’t have one without the other. If you aren’t a covenant member at Watermark Church, you can’t join a community group, and that is where all the getting involved starts.

Membership at Watermark Church

Watermark Church’s membership process first requires that you sign the membership covenant, which oddly enough, you can do online. Once you’ve signed your life over to them, you must either form your own community group or go through the process of being placed in one. This process is called ‘Community Formation‘ (formerly GroupLink).

Watermark Church does not believe that single ladies & gentlemen should be in coed community groups. That is only for the married folk. Another requirement for membership is that you find an area in which to serve in the church. 

Below are screenshots of their membership covenant. To the unsuspecting eye, everything contained in this document may seem legitimate or customary as far as church membership goes. However, if you have any experience with these covenants or have heard stories of people who have dealt with a church where they signed one of these and there was a point of contention or disagreement, you know that these are LEGALLY binding agreements and can be used against you (re: current The Village Church lawsuit  & the Karen Hinkley story.)

It's Not Just Your Regular Sunday School Class....

When I was 17, I started attending church regularly with my boyfriend (now husband) in high school, and we would go to Sunday School. It was a class before the main church service where people around the same age as you sat in a room, listened to a bible lesson, maybe interacted a bit, shared prayer requests, took up a small offering, held hands and said a closing prayer. Sure, we made friends with our peers in the class and had fun at summer camp, and it all developed out of normal human interaction. You made friends with whoever you wanted to and you shared what you felt like sharing. This was the same concept as we moved on to adult Sunday school. 

According to Watermark Church, I guess we weren’t doing it right…

Community groups are the epicenter of Watermark Church. It’s how relationships are formed and accountability is established – or that’s what they want you to think. In these community groups you are enmeshing your entire life into the church. ‘Being your authentic self in community with others‘ is the goal, they say. What does being your ‘authentic self’ really mean, in the context of community groups? Confession, of course!  One of the ‘core values’ of the community groups is Live Authentically‘, which they define as “being completely honest with one another…this means giving others permission to know the real you by sharing authentically.”  This includes sharing your sins, struggles, along with your entire life story, potentially to a room full of complete strangers. It also means sharing your entire financial portfolio and giving away the freedom to make any life decisions apart from the community group.

At this link, you will find lots of information about how their community groups operate.

How Leah Remini's Show Helped this Former Watermark Member Leave The Church

When I received the email from *Susan (pseudonym), a former Watermark Church member, she wrote, “I am not the only former ‘Watermarker’ out there who is nervous to speak up about this organization, because I refuse to call them a church.

Susan felt it was ironic that I had made a comparison between Scientology and Watermark Church, because she said those same comparisons helped her realize that she was not in a healthy church. I asked Susan if she wouldn’t mind answering a few questions for this post, which she was happy to do. I have edited some of her answers for content and length.

1.  When did you become a covenant member of Watermark Church? I became a full member in 2015.
 
2.  Did you join a community group? Joining a Community Group is required for full membership. So yes, I joined a community group. If you don’t know at least 2-3 other people in your same walk of life/age group, you have to go through a thing called GroupLink.(now called Community Formation) It’s a 4 week gathering of people looking to join a CG. What happens is they divide you up by “stage of life” ie single guys, single girls, and married couples. Men and women were designed to come together, not be friends (that is quite literally from a message by Jonathan JP Pokluda  who was the executive pastor of the Dallas campus and heads The Porch for the young singles. Once you are divided by your walk of life, you’re further divided by age group (early 20s, late 20s, early 30s, etc). You go off into a room with all the other people close to your age. Once there, you are further divided by the day of the week that works best for your schedule to meet. So you basically pick the circle of chairs that represent the day that works for you. Once you’re sitting in this circle, a leader will pose questions and everyone is supposed to answer them. While the conversation (if one could call it that) is happening, the leader makes notes about who is interacting with whom or whatever it is they do. You are required to attend 3 of the 4 gatherings. Once you get through this, you are sent an email from the GroupLink leaders informing you that you have been placed in a Community Group and here are the other members. You need to start meeting as soon as possible. So you go from hardly knowing anyone to being in group of “new friends” that you’re supposed to bare your soul to on a weekly basis at a minimum.
 
3.  Were you encouraged to disclose personal ’sins’, information, family secrets, etc in the community group? Oh yes, absolutely. In fact, the first official meeting of our CG was designed to be a “tell your story” kind of night. If I remember correctly, the girl who was our designated leader told us that the first meeting was going to be very long because we were all supposed to be given the same amount of time to tell our life stories and we weren’t supposed to hold anything back. The crazy thing is that this did not appear as a red flag to me because I was absolutely in the honeymoon phase of joining the church and going through GroupLink and these are now my 5 new close friends and everything is going to be great! It does not occur to you that “oh crap, I’m spilling my guts to total strangers and maybe this is a bad idea!” That was the first meeting. We were also encouraged to spill our guts about our week every week. CG was supposed to meet at least once a week at a minimum. Most of the time we were supposed to meet to go over material given to our leader by one of the CG coaches or bible studies or what not. We were also supposed to meet occasionally to do fun, friend things like eat out or something. Weekend retreats were also highly encouraged. It was also encouraged to push a member of your CG to talk if you felt that they were holding something back. You’re not supposed to hold anything back from these people because they are supposed to be the ones who truly know you and know everything about you. So if you feel that someone was keeping something back, you were supposed to lovingly push them to spill their guts.
 
4.  Were there promises made that this information would be kept confidential?  If so, by whom? If I recall correctly, we were told that things said in the group would stay in the group by our leader, and I’m sure she was told this in her leader training right after GroupLink.
 
5.  Were you ever put under church discipline? So, this is an interesting question. I probably was never officially under church discipline, but I kind of felt like our entire group was.  Information on our annual 4B Spiritual Assessment forms was definitely communicated upwards to our coach and our coach’s supervisor (both of whom actually worked for the church). Next thing I know, our group was suddenly having problems and our leader wanted to step down for personal and family reasons.  Either way, next thing I know is that we’re being called into our coach’s supervisor’s office a couple of times to “get help” and one of the things we all had problems with was abiding daily. During one of these meetings, I vividly remember this woman rubbing her face with her hands and saying “well, we’re going to call out sin when we see it”. You’re telling me that you’re going to call out my sin of not reading my bible daily? Really? Well apparently this was a sin that needed calling out. In that same meeting, we were “highly encouraged” to all go to ReGeneration (the recovery ministry) because we had all “had a really hard year” and needed to recover from whatever we were dealing with. By the end of that meeting, our CG was basically disbanded, and 3 of the 5 of us who had gotten rather close decided to give ReGen a try in the hopes that we could try and stay together. Well, that didn’t work. So while it may not have been official church discipline, my “sin” was “called out” and I was told I needed to go to ReGen.
 
6.  Were you ever reprimanded or ‘called out’ for not sharing enough in community groups or bible studies? Yes, on more than one occasion. We were all told that CG was supposed to be a bunch of people who truly knew each other and “did life” together, so we needed to know everything about each other. If someone was thought to be holding back, we were encouraged to push until that person let go of whatever he was holding back. More than once I was pushed by the members in my CG because they thought I was not revealing enough detail about what was going on with me during our weekly meetings. I mean, how much was I supposed to embellish on “I went to work, went home, ate, went to bed, woke up, rinse lather repeat”? And I said as much one time when they kept saying “come on Susan, there has to be more. There has to be more to your week. Come on, talk to us talk to us.” Seriously y’all. I get up, go to work, come home, go to sleep. I’m not struggling with any of the major sins that always gets mentioned (like drugs, addiction, same-sex attraction, whatever), I’m not out partying every night, what more do you want from me?
.
7.  Were you asked to disclose personal financial information (tax returns, paystubs, etc)? Ohhhhhhh yes. This was the one thing I flat out refused to do because that was no one’s business but mine. This was something that was heavily pushed in the CGs and pushed from the pulpit too. The people on your CG needed to know everything about you, including how much you earned, spent, and saved. Because money was one of the most personal things about you so it was an area of your life that desperately needed to be spoken into biblically. Although, please chapter and verse where it says “thou shalt reveal the contents of thine pocketbook.” I refused to do this for 2 reasons: 1) None-ya-business 2) I knew for a fact that if I told the members of my CG what I earned in a year, life would get really awkward really quickly. I did not want to make people feel uncomfortable.
 
8.  Were you required to consult your community group before making certain life decisions (Who to date, marry; what job to take; whether to leave a job; where to move, etc)? Yes, yes, yes, yes. We needed to tell our CG about everything so they could speak into our lives and our decisions biblically. This was most important in our major life decisions. I experienced this because during my time at WM, I was trying to apply for jobs at ‘X’ Corporation. I told this to my CG, and they would ask “do you really think this is what God wants you to do? Should you be moving jobs? God has you at ____ for a reason during this season.” etc, etc, etc. 2 of the girls were supportive, the other 2 were all “are you sure this is what God is leading you to do”? When I mentioned that I thought I might want to buy a house, I had similar comments and that’s when it was just in the “what if” stage!  Spoiler alert, I got hired by ‘X’ Corporation and I ended up purchasing a very nice house. But I know that if my former CG knew where I bought and how much I had paid for it, I would never have heard the end of it.
 
9.  Did anyone outside of the church (family or friends that did not attend) ever express concern about your involvement with Watermark? Yes. My 2 best friends told me on more than one occasion that they were concerned. But they had to be very careful about it in the beginning of my time there because I was so drunk on the kool-aid. Both have since told me that they were extremely happy that I had gotten away from that cult.
 
10.  When did you realize that things were ’not as they seemed’ and that something was off? The process for me started when Leah Remini’s show Scientology and the Aftermath first started at the end of 2016. This was also around the time that our CG was told to go to ReGen. Suddenly, things started to feel very, very off. And the more I watched Leah’s show, the more I started to realize that OMG I’m in a cult! And then I started listening to the messages with a more critical and logical ear as opposed to one of a blind sheep (and the pastors would compare us to sheep often in their messages). When I realized that the pastors were saying things that were more their views and “backed up” by bible verses, I lost it. Some of the things that were said in messages that set me off were things like:
 
if you live alone, you are not preparing well for marriage. You need to live with a same-sex roommate who is dysfunctional so you can learn how to handle conflict well.
 
And regarding money:
 
Emergency funds. Aren’t there real emergencies in the world? Why should you keep God’s money to yourself when there are real emergencies out there that could use God’s money.
 
That to me meant that you shouldn’t have an emergency fund (which every self respecting financial advisor would vehemently argue….including Dave Ramsey!) because you need to give that money to God’s work. Live paycheck to paycheck. The implication was that if life goes belly up and you have an emergency, your CG was supposed to step in and care for you. But…shocker! They’re also living paycheck to paycheck so it’s most likely going to be a financial burden on them! That would then leave you dependent on the generosity of the church! See? Now you’re sucked in even more and are even more dependent on them which makes it harder to leave. 
 
11. When did you make the decision to stop attending Watermark Church? Beginning of 2017 after the end of the 1st season of Leah’s show. I had just realized so much by that point that I did not renew my membership.
 
Susan also wrote, “I fully agree with the opinion that Watermark acts like Scientology in their tactics and even in their recruiting. When I started watching the show, I noticed so many similarities between things that happen in Scientology and Watermark when it comes to the brainwashing of its members. That broke the spell, and I left. However, I do not feel like I can truly tell people the full extent of the spiritual abuse and isolation that happens at this church because it’s members are everywhere.”
 
“There is so much to Watermark that people don’t realize until they are plugged in, just like Scientology. The messages are hypnotic and draw you in, promising ‘freedom in Christ’, etc, etc. I wish I could scream from the rooftops that this church should be avoided at all costs, but I’m afraid to. I wish I could tell people about the red flags all over the place that I should have heeded. The constant talking about becoming a full member, the obsession with church authority, the pushing of complementarianism, (which is a breeding ground for abuse), the constant pushing of their recovery ministry Re:Generation, the misuse of scripture to push their various views – no joke, one of the many messages on authority flat out said that we need to be under the authority of a church and per Hebrews 13:17 we need to obey them because they will give an account of us. The implication in other messages is the they will give an account for us in heaven so if you aren’t under the authority of a church, no one will give an account for you in heaven.”
 
Susan says she is now happy to be away from Watermark Church and is healing.
 
 

If It Walks Like a Duck......

On the April 8, 2019 episode of  WordsfromWags, a website that features videos from Watermark Church senior pastor Todd Wagner addressing various issues, the topic of the day was ‘Is Watermark Church a Cult? ‘In the beginning of the video, his co-host Adam Tarrow says he went on a Google search and typed in ‘best cults in Dallas’ and Watermark Church was #1 on the list.

I don’t know folks….if you have to go online and record a video to explain how your church is not a cult…..this might lead into a Jeff Foxworthy joke!

I highly recommend that you watch the video, because if you watch it with just the tiniest bit of scrutiny, you will notice Todd Wagner work some word-magic here. He first goes into the definition of the word cult – which in latin is the word ‘cultus‘, defined as ‘to inhabit, dwell; to cultivate‘.  He springs off of that definition into how true followers of Jesus might be considered a ‘Jesus-cult’ and how is that a bad thing?  

I see what you did there!

Secondly he says that even Jesus himself said things that might be considered cultish:

“If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, even his own life, he cannot be my disciple.” Luke 14:26

Sure, lets not address anything that is rumored to be strange about Watermark and say that Jesus sounded ‘cultish’. Gotcha.

Third, Todd said Christians should live their lives in a way that looks radical or extreme to other people, and Watermark is the best at it, because most churches aren’t very radical! 

So in summary, Watermark isn’t a cult because they follow Jesus better than anyone, are more radical about it than anyone else, and if that’s what a cult is, oh well, I guess we’re a Jesus cult!

He did end the video by defining what HE thought the three marks of a cult were: 

  1. A human making a grab for power
  2. Sexual exploitation
  3. Leaders trying to drain members in order to live exorbitant lives

I’m going to address #3, because I did my own Google search – of the Dallas County Central Appraisal District and discovered that Todd Wagner lives in a $1.5 million dollar home in a very prestigious area of Dallas.

 

Another Story To Tell

In my next post I’ll share another story from another former-Watermark member. He found my blog while researching the similarities between Scientology and Watermark Church. I’ll also go into more detail about how Watermark Church does resemble a cult, and how some of their teachings are harmful and potentially abusive.

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Josh
Josh
11 months ago

This is such lying BS, you people are pathetic really.

RRM
RRM
1 year ago

Still reeling from my experience of being a WM member..which I ended in 2016. Have been warning peeps from this cult ever since. If you’re a sinner and you know you are—- stay away.

Dave
2 years ago

I promise I’m not trolling y’all. Having been a Watermark (now CityBridge) member since 2016 have never EVER heard these messages that”Susan” speaks of. I have NEVER been asked to, let alone forced, to disclose financial information. I have however heard Todd Wagner say from the pulpit “if you’re not comfortable giving here that’s ok, please give somewhere meaningful to you. If you’d like a suggestion for a charity outside of our church we’ll gladly help you.” They don’t even take a collection in church! My challenge to “Susan” is to give citations for the quotes she gives. Considering that… Read more »

Dave
2 years ago
Reply to  Author

If you got the impression I was disingenuous or was minimizing someone’s hurt please forgive me.

I take at face value “Susan” has hurt and I feel compassion for her.

I merely want to get the facts out on the table.

If the things she claims were stated from the pulpit are true, there should be plenty of documentation.

1 Thessalonians 5:21
Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

Help me to understand. What do you mean exactly by “re-victimization”.

“Dismiss the abuse of others” how did you come to that conclusion?

Dave
2 years ago

Seems like there’s a lot of hurting people with a lot to hide on this thread. If you don’t want to share your story you don’t have to. If you don’t want to share about your finances you don’t have to. Not every word from a person in a pulpit will always be perfect considering that they are imperfect humans and will admit it. Not to mention that even if the words are perfect it’s up to the listeners as to how they interpret it. If you don’t want to be a member at Watermark you don’t have to be.… Read more »

John
John
2 years ago

There is a difference between positional authority and spiritual authority. Positional authority deals with executing responsibilities within an organization, like a general in an army, the president of bank, or the pastor of a church.  Spiritual authority is the result of God’s power shown through spiritual gifts and deep experiences with God.  Spiritual authority influences others toward God’s purposes.   Spiritual authority has nothing to do with title, education, or rhetorical ability (2 Cor 10-13).  A pastor or elder does not automatically have spiritual authority due to his position in a church.  And this is important. 25 years ago, I found myself getting angry at… Read more »

Rhonda
Rhonda
2 years ago

I was a WM member until I realized that if you fail their ‘ morality’ assessment and they decide you have a ‘pride’ issue, not a desperate, destitute, homeless or depression issue.. I can attest, when they claim no member of WM will ever go homeless, is a complete and total lie. If the leaders deem you unworthy of their support due to pride or sin struggle reasons, they will absolutely unequivocally unabashedly and with zero conscience or compassion, write you off. They’re not only going to write you off but they’ll make sure your entire community group does too.… Read more »

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[…] of absence in September 2020 to work on prideful sin that was increasingly becoming visible to church members. During his address to the Watermark Community Church congregation in September, Wagner told them […]

Alicia Gerber
Alicia Gerber
3 years ago

Did anyone see this Sunday’s Sermon? I don’t know if I am over-reacting when Todd made a off the cuff remark about taking his wife some where last week where she could be warm. This would be Cabo and in the middle of the worst weather tragedies that Dallas has seen in decades. Did he stay and open his churches to the people that were cold and hungry? I was one of the cold ones! Did he stay to minister to anyone in need? Also, he pointed out that all the people at the resort were drinking Mezcal (Then he… Read more »

Dallasite
Dallasite
3 years ago
Reply to  Alicia Gerber

I have no comment on the Cabo thing; but I will say, the church was opened to anyone and anyone during the snowstorm, event the kids playhouse for children to play. You can see it on their instagram!

Kanakuk Camper
Kanakuk Camper
3 years ago

Todd was my counselor at Kanakuk Camps for a summer. I was blessed to attend Kanakuk for years and years. All of the years I attended Kanakuk I had awesome and incredible counselors except for Todd. If you were not From Highland Park or University Park Todd Had no use for you. If your Parents were not rich and someone. Todd could use he had no use for you. I was a messed up kid at that time and Todd was the worst counselor ever. Todd loves and worships money and attention. Todd uses God to accomplish his goals of… Read more »

Cupcake
Cupcake
3 years ago

We briefly visited WM; I quickly told my husband, “this place is the cult of Todd and will implode without him.” That’s not Todd’s fault, but no thanks. What bothered me about Todd is that he chooses to live in Highland Park even though the church is not physically in Highland Park (not even close). I cannot imagine that Jesus, given all options, would choose to live among the wealthiest citizens in the most landscaped, luxurious part of the city. It’s a huge red flag to me about Todd’s character and understanding of God. Then there is the whole Lake… Read more »

Cal
Cal
3 years ago

This church sounds exhausting and prideful. Listening for root issues and how they cause hurt for make more senses than listening to reply in a sermon.

Last edited 3 years ago by Cal
Penelope
Penelope
3 years ago

There are 2 Todd Wagner’s in Dallas. One is very wealthy and likely the one who lives in the house you mentioned. He’s not the pastor of Watermark. I’m not saying that the Watermark Todd Wagner lives in a shack, by any means. But please make sure your referencing the right guy. Also, please note, you are free to leave Watermark Church at any time. And some community groups are less intense. Watermark might want the groups to be run a certain way, but that doesn’t mean the group has to follow the rules. At least that was my experience… Read more »

Person
Person
3 years ago
Reply to  Author

Adding to – people in good standing who have zero knowledge of any discipline issues also fear leaving due to verifiable stories where watermark members have harassed and stalked people for leaving – in cases where the person leaving has come to realize the place at its core is Not what is represented on its surface and middle layers. The initial corporate fraud is in fact the membership agreement itself. It is Not referenced as a legal tool which may be weaponized against anyone they desire to control or experiment on. Yet it turns out they are getting people to… Read more »

Cal
Cal
3 years ago
Reply to  Person

Sounds like Gaslighting.

Bob
Bob
3 years ago
Reply to  Author

Hi to all, I’ve been a member of Watermark for over three years, went through Re:Generation and now co-lead a community group. I don’t mean to discredit anyone’s experience, but mine overall has been encouraging, and yes, challenging, but biblically sound. If you are going to judge Watermark, its leaders and programs, then I would encourage you to do so in the context of Scripture, especially the New Testament, including the gospels and the epistles that talk about church order, and yes, even discipline. Our post-modern tendency is to use culture as a reference point, not the Bible. I can… Read more »

Gabriela
3 years ago
Reply to  Bob

I can tell you that I know Todd Wagner personally over 20 years ago. While he was pastor at another church in Dallas he followed this same doctrine of sin and follower of Jesus Christ. He counseled my former fiancée and after several meetings with him my fiancée broke up the engagement and I was left devastated. Per Todd Wagner I was not the right person or the right fit or whatever he thought. I will never forget the screams of desperation and loss I felt as a young Christian woman. Now he confesses to sin himself , sin of… Read more »

Leah’s Friend
Leah’s Friend
3 years ago
Reply to  Gabriela

I knew Todd when he was an associate pastor at Northwest Bible Church. Our daughters went to the same grade school and were on the same soccer team. He was then the most arrogant and disrespectful person imaginable. He walked with an air of superiority that was disgusting. He had no recollection of ever having seen or met you before because he was so self absorbed. When I watched his “stepping back”/pride/ sin talk, I wanted to either vomit or laugh out loud.. Under the veil of confession, it was all about him. He can be only the center of… Read more »

Cal
Cal
3 years ago
Reply to  Author

It is a long process to leave unless you just don’t fill out the yearly form. If you don’t fill out the form you can leave easy if your just quiet.

There is forgiveness for a church also and I hope they are humbled one day so they can grow past some of there root issues.

Tim
Tim
2 years ago
Reply to  Author

Author: this is unequivocally WRONG. Where are you getting this information? I’ve been at Watermark for 7 years and experienced people in my community group leaving the church; there are NO such requirements or stipulations that prevent you from leaving the group or the church entirely. I’m happy to answer any questions, but you need to know this is absolutely wrong information.

Mel
Mel
2 years ago
Reply to  Author

How can you be under church discipline if you leave the church? Genuine question

Smoke Porterhouse
Smoke Porterhouse
1 year ago
Reply to  Mel

You can’t. I’ve heard a LOT of questionable things about Watermark, and don’t agree, spiritually, with my friends that are WC members. They are some of my least favorite friends, if that makes sense. But to equate WC with Scientology is absurd. If you want to leave, then leave. I live in HP, and we laugh at WC people. People are NOT going to negatively treat people who leave WC. The ‘discipline’ is likely something that stays in your file such that if you re-join, you’ve got some wood to chop to have membership reinstated. Who gives a shit –… Read more »

Pdiddy
Pdiddy
2 years ago
Reply to  Author

The house was given to him from a member of the church years ago. Todd raised 6 kids there and has never take a big salary. He is a gifted teacher and speaker and could have made so much more money over the years with the opportunities he was given, but he didn’t take them. No one is perfect including Todd.. he is not God. The church was founded on Biblical principles from families that really love the Lord. It sounds like people from the church may have gotten some things wrong, but I know so many people that have… Read more »

Mel
Mel
2 years ago
Reply to  Author

Watermark is very transparent about finances. It sounds like maybe you want Todd to fall in line with the way you think things should be instead of what is biblical. Every argument you put forth seems to be based on your subjective opinion based on your speculation, assumption, and judgement.. Watermark encourages people to confess their sins to one another and to admonish faithfully but that’s because that’s what the Bible tells us to do as believers.. The woman’s story you shared sounded like her personal interpretation of events that has no factual evidence to back it up.. We are… Read more »

Mel
Mel
2 years ago
Reply to  Author

How do you know Todd pays that? Have you heard of Life Water? The guy has an ad that comes on YouTube where he goes through how his org is run. He has people who fund his life so no donations are used for that purpose and so he can fully focus on running the mission.. do you have knowledges that Todd is spending money frivolously?

Mel
Mel
2 years ago
Reply to  Author

At the beginning of each year our membership goes to zero. So you either choose to remain by completing the 4b questionnaire or you are no longer a member

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[…] a great example of unsafe “community groups” which verge on cults. (I share this not to be super-negative, but just because this practice is far […]

Be Light
Be Light
4 years ago

CALL TO ACTION Former WM Members –  Did WM pray for you, or did WM prey on you? (note spelling a/e) I have met small groups all over the Dallas area of cast aside individuals who bonded over the abuse they experienced while attending this organization.  Take Your Power Back – we all know many invested their heart and lives into this place, only to be punished and abused when their performance was not up to the public image WM wanted society to perceive of their organization.  They gave you a false fraudulent form of love, because it was Conditional… Read more »

Izael
Izael
4 years ago

I don’t want to make light of this, but I do want to say that this is beyond misleading. Can’t even begin to address this without feeling a sense of disappointment. Not in your writing, but in the people who felt that they were being personally attacked and never took the time to speak to a leader or to actually consider the teachings that are found in the Bible. The level of absurdity is a bit high here… I’m a member, not once have I been asked to fork out my money, not once have I been forced to make… Read more »

Concern
Concern
4 years ago
Reply to  Author

Izael – who are you to judge someone else’s experience? My perception is this former member did take their concerns to leadership. You do make the near perfect member with your automated trust in leadership, over having an open mind to others sharing their personal experiences. I admit I also used to automatically discredit stories Like this one when I heard them. I automatically defended the leaders and staff, and also automatically discredited the victims with pre determined notions the victim was not telling the whole story. I have never met so many people using the term ‘spiritual abuse’ as… Read more »

Just a regular Joe
Just a regular Joe
3 years ago
Reply to  Concern

“Concern”, Who are you to judge!? You are way off base

Cal
Cal
3 years ago
Reply to  Concern

Psychological warfare Is a good name for it.

Jesuslovesyou
Jesuslovesyou
3 years ago
Reply to  Concern

While God does allow humans to have free will, His greatest gift to every human is salvation and eternal life, through believing that He sent His son as a sacrifice for our sins. If we believe that, we should also have a desire to please God, and want the way we live our lives to reflect that desire. The Bible says in Hebrews 4:13, “Nothing in all creation is hidden from God’s sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account.” And in Ecclesiastes‬ ‭12:14, “For God will bring every deed… Read more »

Jesuslovesyou
Jesuslovesyou
3 years ago
Reply to  Author

Christian community can have so many different levels, and not everyone is seeking the same depth in all relationships. A major focus of the Community Groups at Watermark and many other churches is to foster the development of deep connection with a small group of fellow believers that enables true Christian accountability. But not everyone wants that, and for those people there are lots of other churches that offer community groups, small groups, life groups, etc. that would be a better fit. I would be ok disclosing financial information to my community group. I have nothing to hide, and sharing… Read more »

Will
Will
2 years ago
Reply to  Author

As an ex-Watermark member (8 years), and former CG leader (6 years), I can say unequivocally that I had no problem sharing my financial information with my guys. It definitely wasn’t the first thing that we did (nor was sharing our life maps, as *Susan* said was her experience). We didn’t share our financial information until almost a year into our meeting. And, there was zero pressure from church leadership to do so. As the CG leader, I went first. We did one a week, so this stretch over several weeks. There was one guy that didn’t want to share… Read more »

Cal
Cal
3 years ago
Reply to  Author

Amen

Don’t Drink The Koolaide
Don’t Drink The Koolaide
4 years ago
Reply to  Izael

I’m thankful you have experienced the controlling, entrapment, and triangulating side of WM. It’s all sunshine and roses till you see it firsthand. Once you see it, you can’t unsee it. WM hides abusers and minimizes victims. Those who love control and achievement thrive very well there.

Cal
Cal
3 years ago

Yes” WM hides abusers and minimizes victims. Those who love control and achievement thrive very well there“ = works

Mark
Mark
8 months ago

I was there when Billy Weber fell at Prestonwood Baptist in 1988. All of these pastors have one thing in common. Hubris brought on by badly managed mega-prosperity. The devil is more deceptive than we can ever know. Only drawing near ourselves daily to Jesus can we endure. I was at NW Bible when Todd was the singles pastor in the 90s. There was a very ungodly conflict in those days. It took a few years before a new pastor was chosen. That pastor is still there … still humble before God and was the right man to lead that… Read more »

Abigail
Abigail
4 years ago

Let me guess…the PASTORS of this church DONT have to be “real” and disclose THEIR salaries, sins, struggles…….right???? Just the congregation……hmmmmmm…..

Just a regular Joe
Just a regular Joe
3 years ago
Reply to  Abigail

Incorrect. I have first hand experience with a senior pastor doing exactly this and teaching younger families how to properly budget and cost of having kids.
It is very helpful and let’s us plan financially well

Dee Parsons
Dee Parsons
4 years ago

We know a number of people who attend Watermark due to our 10 year stay in dallas. One person complained that her husband was forced to tell his community group how much he made and to account for how he spent his money. he was reprimanded for not giving more to the church. He began to consider that he was in a cult. He finally quit when he decided to switch jobs and was reprimanded for not getting the group’s permission.

This is a great post, Anna

Stan
Stan
4 years ago

This is a quality and important post. Thanks to you for writing and Susan for sharing. I think you need to expand on the 4B Spiritual Assessment forms. They are full-blown corporate performance reviews, except about twice as long as any I’ve filled out. I think I have a pdf copy of a ten year old one. On the cult thing: LIsten to this longer presentation from a high school ministry event. If you’re short on time, start at 27 minutes when the speakers starts explaining why people think Watermark is a cult. People are insecure, confused, listen to gossip,… Read more »

Mark R
Mark R
4 years ago
Reply to  Stan

The Yelp algorithm is strange. It also lists Fellowship Church and Village Church in its top 10 on cults (Village likely is, Fellowship is more of a personality cult centered around Ed), strangely Gateway Church isn’t listed (and several people think it may be more of a personality cult than Watermark or Village). Prestonwood Baptist also made the list (top 20) and it’s nowhere near a cult.

Serving Kids in Japan
Serving Kids in Japan
3 years ago
Reply to  Mark R

<blockquote>Prestonwood Baptist also made the list (top 20) and it’s nowhere near a cult.</blockquote>

Oh, I wouldn’t be so sure of that. Amy Smith of the blog Watchkeep has documented her experience there, and it bears much of the hallmarks of a cult. Even now, her parents (who worship there) refuse to talk to her or visit her children, simply because she was dutiful enough to report on the pedophile acts of a man who used to work at Prestonwood.

Blake Pokley
3 years ago
Reply to  Stan

I am a CFP® and I don’t see how the gift tax is relevant in this instance. The gift tax is only levied at the end of someone’s life when they exceed the gift tax exclusion in their lifetime (which is currently set at $11.7 million per individual). So unless this person gave away 7 more $1.5 million homes, they would not be taxed on any of those gifts ever. Not to “gotcha”, but I just want to set the record straight that the gift tax doesn’t make it unrealistic that Todd’s family was gifted that house. Having said that,… Read more »

George Houston
George Houston
3 years ago
Reply to  Stan

Just checking out the church and looking at the background info – the house has tripled in value since the Wagner’s bought it 20 years ago – hardly a 7 figure home when purchased. Unsure why he is getting criticized for living in a house that is experiencing uber appreciation b/c of the school district it resides in. Which by the way, most of north Dallas (including Lake Highlands) has experienced the same level of appreciation. University Park has the advantage though of a much lower tax rate for obvious reasons.

Daniel
Daniel
2 years ago
Reply to  George Houston

He didn’t even buy the house, it was gifted by a member years ago. It’s ridiculous to give issue for a house he lives in, that he himself didn’t purchase.